EYE ON: Money20/20 Conference from Las Vegas 2025 – Part 3

Welcome to the FinWise EYE ON Podcast series, where we bring you the latest insights across the fintech banking, card, payments, and lending industries. In each episode, we sit down with industry insiders and experts and dive into the hottest topics and trends that you need to keep an eye on. Time to take off for another episode of the EYE ON Podcast. 

Nick Chiappetti with FinWise Team and Guests:  Welcome to a special edition of FinWise EYE ON Podcast, coming to you straight from Money20/20 in Las Vegas.

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Nathan Mills:  Well, all right, we’re here at Money20/20. It’s Day 2 (2-1/2; I don’t know how we measure days here at Money20/20). But I’m here with Chris. Can you introduce yourself and let everyone know who you are and who you’re with and what you guys do.

Chris Eggemeyer:  Absolutely. Well I appreciate letting me come here and talk a little bit. My name is Chris Eggemeyer. I work [as VP] for a private equity fund called Castle Creek Capital. We have been investing in community banks for the better part of 30+ years, and about three and a half years ago we spun up a venture fund focused on investing in fintech companies specifically applicable to the community banking space; and that’s where I spend most of my time these days. And that’s most of what brought me out here to Money20/20.

Nathan:  Yeah. Is this your first Money20/20? 

Chris:  It is, oddly enough. Yeah. And it’s just as chaotic as people led me believe it would be.

Nathan:  It is. 

Chris:  I’m sure everyone can hear that I’m barely hanging on to my voice as it stands.

Nathan:  Yeah, the volume level required just to communicate here is something else. So, well Chris, tell me – you’ve been working with community banks in the company for a long time, so that’s been eye-opening to you and exciting about this fintech space, and how they work with community banks?

Chris:  I mean, so many things, really. I think one of the most interesting things that struck me off the bat is the level of interest in fintech in general in the community banking space. I think there’s an acknowledgement coming from a number of different sources that there is a need for the business model writ large in community banking to adapt to the times, and I think to a certain degree that’s maybe a response to the rise of neo-banks like Chime or Dave or MoneyLine. But even, you know, we deal with a lot of more business-centric community banks; I think there’s an acknowledgement that the small business customer of today doesn’t look like the small business customer of even ten years ago. They are members of a new generation, and they’re looking for banking relationships that meet them more on their own terms. And that doesn’t mean they want to leave the relationship-based nature of working with a community bank, but it doesn’t work for the modern consumer to not have digital account opening and things like that. Things that we might consider should be table stakes at this point, but are not. And I think that the interest and adoption curves are picking up, so it’s good to see, and also interesting to see where that will evolve.

Nathan:  What makes you excited right now as you’re exploring this space and talking to people?

Chris:  I mean, I like hearing what people have to say about the let’s call it the two hot topics in tech banking right now, as being AI and stablecoins. 

Nathan:  Yeah, yeah, bingo card filled.

Chris:  Perfect. We’ve done it. We hit the key words. I’ll be the first one to say, especially when it comes to the digital asset side, that I am more of a skeptic than I am a believer.

Nathan:  Yeah. We’re hearing that more from other people, too, by the way. It’s been kind of a quick transition, actually.

Chris:  That’s good. I feel less alone in that opinion now. I mean, and I’m curious as to how that has evolved and how that has evolved so quickly, because it feels like a topic that everyone wants to know more about. And you could say the same thing about AI, but I feel that the value prop is a little bit clearer there. But I also have really yet to meet a banker or quite frankly a fintech person who has articulated well to me the significant value-add over the current status quo of a community bank. I mean, I’m fascinated and I’m a big fan of Bank of North Dakota. I’ve had a couple of conversations with Rick Geloff there about the stablecoin, the rough rider coin thing that they’re working on, and the possibilities that it poses for money movement around institutions in North Dakota. So I think there are maybe point applications like that, but to a certain degree the conversation around it and the conversation around AI remind me a lot of similar conversations around the hot technologies of the last few years. The reality of what they can do will almost certainly over the next few years settle from this can do everything to this is very good at particular applications. Bankers are naturally cautious by nature, so it’s always curious to see how people latch on to technologies like this, and what the ultimate follow-through is, for lack of a better term. I think someone once told me bankers don’t want to be first in line or second in line; they want to be third-plus in line. Which is why what Bank of North Dakota is working on is so interesting, ‘cause it feels like —

Nathan:  It’s first.

Chris:  Yeah. And they’re uniquely structured to be able to take that kind of risk. But who knows whether that will be the opening of a flood gate, or whether it’s just a test case that people will continue to look at and say that’s interesting, but I don’t think it’s a fit for this bank.

Nathan:  Yeah. That willingness for banks to become first, I mean there’s got to be more to it than just maybe an executive leadership thing. The staff, the boards, have to look different, right?

Chris:  Yeah. I mean, it’s a lot of this is beyond just stablecoins and AI, but I think community banking writ large is in the midst of a cultural transformation. And it’s one of the best parts of the industry, but it’s also one of the things that’s in need of evolution as they look towards the future. But community banks have been around for a long, long time. And a lot of them have legacy ownership structures. They’ve been owned and operated by the same families or same people for decades and decades, and from a consumer perspective that’s fantastic. It provides a level of continuity that you don’t see at larger banks. A sense of community involvement and all the things that you really love about community banks. But it creates an environment where the bank management is comfortable continuing with the status quo. And I can’t blame them for that, because risk unfortunately, traditionally, gets punished by regulators. And something has to change in Washington if we’re going to see that evolution writ large. But I do think enough of them are seeing banks like FinWise, or otherwise looking to and really take advantage of these new business lines, these new types of customer relationships, and the technologies that enable that, and are starting to say I think we can do that.

Nathan:  Yeah. Are you hopeful then with what you’re seeing that we’re going to get there? 

Chris:  Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, they’re going to be bumps in the road. It’s the nature of life. It is before every sector, not just banking, over the next ten-fifteen-twenty years. But there’s a reason why banks have been around as long as they have, and I think the idea that the existence of the internet or something like that is going to fundamentally change, deteriorate or otherwise minimize such a critical part of the economy is hard to believe. I mean, at the end of the day most consumers may not immediately think about community banks. You live in a big city; you see Wells Fargo or Chase or Bank of America, whatever, in your day-to-day life. But community banks by and large still underpin a huge portion of the American economy, and I have a hard time seeing that fundamental relationship changing any time soon.

Nathan:  So it’s a good place to be still.

Chris:  I think so. I might be a little bit biased, but—

Nathan:  It’s where you are.

Chris:  Yeah. Hey, look, I wouldn’t be doing what I am doing if I didn’t believe in the sector and its potential, and being here and seeing the technology companies that really believe in it as well is heartening. There are so many people out there who need the services that we provide. I think it benefits us as an industry, whether you talk about banking, fintech, or the combination of the two – to keep our arms open to each other. It’s the best way to move forward in my opinion.

Nathan:  Yeah. I agree. Well Chris, I hope you enjoy the rest of the event. Thanks for taking time to talk with us.

Chris:  Thanks for letting me.  

Nathan:  I appreciate it.

Chris:  Absolutely.

Nathan:  Well, enjoy the rest of the show, and we’ll let you get back to talking to some others.

Chris:  Thanks very much.

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Nathan Mills:  Thanks, Chris. We’ve got a couple more guests with us, so I’ll let you guys introduce yourselves and tell us who you are, the company you’re with, and what you do.

Madhu Yalamarthi:  Hi, I’m Madhu Yalamarthi, and I’m the Co-Founder and CEO of Modak. We are a fintech app for families trying to make banking solutions affordable/accessible for all ages and income levels. Our ecosystem is you can do good by building good technology and making banking accessible and affordable for families.

Nathan:  Yeah.

Madhu:  By building one unified platform, this happened in the B2B world with Ramp and Brex and others, they were doing that in the B2C world. And my colleague and partner here is Julie Valencia. I’ll let her . . .

Julie Valencia:  I’m the Head of Compliance, Partnerships and Operations for Modak, so helping to make sure that all of the vision that Madhu has for our company is able to happen compliantly, safely, securely; and our whole team really gets excited about the things that we can do for kids. And being a mom myself; I have a 10-year-old and she is a product tester.

Nathan:  Oh, wow.

Julie:  Every day.

Madhu:  She’s our Chief Arbiter of Case. The whole team is divided and working and she can give it to her daughter and say that one.

Nathan:  Isn’t that funny how that works these days? I have four kids the same way; if I can get their opinion? OK, yeah, I know we’re good.

Julie:  She regularly chooses the stickers that we give away.

Nathan:  OK. Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about how this idea came about and what kind of spawned your desire to make this happen.

Madhu:  The story of it comes from my personal journey. I’m the first in my family to go to college. When . . . family got him scholarships and stuff on math and   … and all of this, so the world has been very fair to me and created opportunities.

Nathan:  Yeah.

Madhu:  And through that process I went to Stanford, then I was in a venture capital firm, one of the leading venture capital firms called Notable Capital. Still very early in Square on CashApp and a number of iconic companies. And so, while covering financial services in fintech as a venture capital investor, I am being on board and seeing this, I thought there is a big opportunity here where you can actually connect the world of social impact and families with the banking ecosystem, and in setting up a banking platform is not easy, and I think it’s—you need to connect with an ecosystem of banks and compliance and the world of like ledgers and all of this. At the same time you need to speak the language of stickers. So, how do you build a product like that, but in most or even of an organization like that, not even a culture like that. And how do you get the resources to support all of this. And I thought that is worthy of the cost to take the plunge and build it. And that’s how we got started with Modak. We raised nineteen million dollars in capital.

Nathan:  Oh, wow.

Madhu:  I mean, we’ve been very lucky. We’ve been doubling every quarter now.

Nathan:  Wow.

Madhu:  And customers . . . .

Nathan:  Yeah. I’m curious, what are some of the surprises that you’ve learned along the way that stand out as like, wow, this is, and some of those Aha! Moments as you’ve built this?

Madhu:  There’s many. I think, as a founder, like even on the day I started at the ATM, I’m like wow, this is awesome. You go through the downs, and then you go through the ups, and there’s a lot that’s gone on.

Nathan:  Yeah.

Madhu:  I think the pleasant surprise is a parent engage with our app a lot. So as kids have like nanny camera, like if you have a baby or a toddler, you look at what the baby camera is doing to say is the baby sleeping and all these ones. As the kids get older, especially us those with teenage kids, they don’t know what the kids are doing. And especially in an era of online and AI and all of these ones, you want to keep your kids safe while giving them their independence. How do you do that? And I mean, that is an anxiety among a lot of parents, especially moms. And I think we want to be sort of a supporting ecosystem for that through as the kid has a debit card and a bank account, while having full visibility from the parent. And that gives you the freedom and the training wheels with the innovative trusted and safe environment. And that’s what gets us the love from the customers. Earlier we used to have influences . . . I just saw on our stack that a parent just tagged us on Instagram. They were asking, and it was like, and that was such a moving thing for the team.

Nathan:  Oh, yeah.  

Madhu:  And people talking about it. Every day you grind on. You work in banking, so you look at OK, how does this ACH work; how does this vCon work; what happens in this. You’re in the nuts and bolts of this thing, and then suddenly see a customer like talk about it, and the impact it’s making on the family? That is very surprising and positive.

Nathan:  Yeah. Well that’s amazing to hear. And that’s got to just motivate you, right, even more.

Julie:  I would say one other thing, that I, having been in banking for a bunch of years, never imagined that I would work for a product that gets given as a Christmas present.

Nathan:  Oh, wow. Yeah.

Julie:  And we have a lot of parents that say they start, they give their kids our debit card, they order the card, they pick, we have fourteen designs, they pick a cool design, and they give it as a Christmas present. And I can’t fathom that as a banking product, but it happens, and it’s really neat to see when people get really that excited about something you’re working on.

Nathan:  I would imagine that because there’s that visibility and that connection with parents, that it creates opportunities for conversation and learning that maybe wouldn’t happen because they’re just – you just don’t know, right? I have teenagers, and my wife looks at their account, but she doesn’t know what’s going on, right?

Madhu:  But even more than – you hit a very interesting point, conversation, I think. There is a Socratic, there’s different types of learning, and kids learn different ways. And I think thankfully the U.S. is not having the conversation to say all schools are teaching financial literacy.

Nathan:  Right. 

Madhu: If people are living paycheck-to-paycheck like a majority of the Americans, at some point in their lives their aspect of income level, people who live paycheck-to-paycheck doesn’t mean you’re poor or rich or something. It’s your financial behavior. So in the early days, how do you inculcate that. And so we have a parent who’s like, I have two kids. One kid is like, I give them an allowance, and they spend it immediately, the whole allowance. And another kid’s like, I save. And so both kids learn to say, oh my brother is like… Imagine learning by doing. And then say hey, would you like to save? Which means next time you can have more. And so that really interesting, in the early days when you learn that experience, and as they get their first jobs, they can go after it regularly, they can get really better at foundations of financial literacy, than me or you or somebody else giving them a 3-hour lecture on financial literacy.

Nathan:  Yeah. So their relationship with money is established early in good ways. That’s fantastic. Well, how’s your experience at Money20/20 been, and what are you hoping to gain through the convesations, or other things here while you’re at the show? 

Madhu:  I think Money20/20 is the sort of the biggest platform for financial technology. It brings a lot of key stakeholders. We’ve gone through sort of the last two-three years of the whole industry being a little bit adjusting for the rapid growth we’ve seen through the previous few years, and then re-calibrating to say hey, how are we doing? Like, did we do the foundations? And so everybody went and checked their homes, checked their organizations, to say did we do it right? So mine’s like FinWise and a lot of “legends” in the ecosystem come in and say we are good. Like we are good to keep on working, just like with the kids, to say we have the best, we have the payment rails system. You have the ideas. We can power you. And this one I think is where you see all these green shoes coming in and it’s very exciting to be in that, especially with new technologies coming in and stuff. And that’s the theme and the vision behind what fintech, not just Modak, but the last fifteen years of the fintech ecosystem is, how can we make things affordable and accessible through really good partnerships between banks and fintechs and investors and all the stakeholders in the ecosystem. It’s really exciting.

Nathan:  Yeah. It is. It’s a fun place to be. What’s next for you guys? Is there anything that you can talk about that’s going to be new, or — ?

Madhu:  For now we just need to do the thing that we’re doing even better. 

Nathan:  Keep making more, yeah. So for parents out there listening and their Christmas shopping, right now, how do they learn more about you guys?

Madhu:  ModakMakers.com or go to PlayStore or AppStore and search for Modak and sign up for it. You can use the Modak VIP code and you will get a small present in your cart.

Nathan:  Fantastic. All right. Like I said, we just started our Christmas shopping, so we’re going to jump on that. 

Madhu:  We’d love to have your family.

Nathan:  Thank you guys, I appreciate it. 

Julie:  Thank you.

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Nathan Mills:  All right. Well, I’m here with Andrew Grant from Runway Group. Andrew, can you just introduce yourself a little bit, what you do at Runway Group, a little bit of your background, and what Runway Group does as well.

Andrew Grant:  Sure, I’d be happy to, thank you. So, I’m an attorney [Regulatory and Transaction Attorney], and Runway Group we’re a mix of a legal consulting and licensing firm. So basically we provide curated, bespoke solutions for clients to find that hand-in-glove experience. What we say is legal and compliance work together. So we’re hired to apply that as an outside solution so you don’t have to hire multiple vendors. 

Nathan:  So you’ve been to Money20/20 before.

Andrew:  Yes. Fifth time.

Nathan:  Fifth time. OK, wow. So I imagine as you kind of mentioned before as we were chatting that it’s changed a little bit, at least for you and what you’re spending your time here doing. How—tell me a little bit about that.

Andrew:  I mean, being a fairly new company, a large part of it is just getting our brand awareness out. It’s connecting with more people, hearing what they’re building, hearing what they’re doing. But for me always the most exciting part of Money20/20 and why I always come is I love talking to people building; I love talking to banks building. It’s always exciting, like what are people passionate about? Why are they doing this? What pain point are they trying to solve? And this year for me, like obviously stablecoins are a huge conversation with everything. There’s still a lot of uncertainty about what people want to do with stablecoins. How do they matter? What are, for banks, too, like why would we be told not to deposit, for what benefit? Is there a risk? Are stablecoins safe? Is that something we have to worry about? What does the GENIUS Act actually mean for us? So it’s all this, all these open questions, but they’re good open questions. We’re seeing technology adaptation being pushed for the first time in a long time. Post SVB, everyone was sad.

Nathan:  Right. 

Andrew:  Last year was like oh, stuff was getting a little better with an election coming up, what’s going to happen, so there was cautious optimism. This year, everyone’s much more optimistic in my impression.

Nathan:  Full speed ahead.

Andrew:  Yeah. Everyone’s like we’re building this, we’re excited, who do we connect with, who do we partner with, how do we move forward. So this year is more connected, more action in that regard. Like three years from now we have confidence that stuff will still be on the upward trajectory where we’re now able to implement this new technology,yeah.

Nathan:  Is there anything that you’ve been surprised about in conversations?

Andrew:  Not so much surprise. Again, it’s always more just learning. I guess the one thing I’ve been surprised at is a lot of the investors that I’ve spoken to here, they are very interested in the back office plumbing components, how the stuff works. So it isn’t necessarily, I expect them to be like oh, AI stuff, or stablecoin stuff, or something like that. They’re like no, like actually for us. I mean, granted it’s just representative of who I’ve spoken with so far, but I think maybe that comes from this understanding of all the stuff that’s been  . . .  all of these things that happened because you didn’t have this proper infrastructure.

Nathan:  We need to know how this works now.

Andrew:  To support this stuff.

Nathan:  I’m glad they’re asking the right questions.

Andrew:  They’re asking the right questions. I’m glad it isn’t just going to AI stuff. They’re looking to invest in a wider range of companies. So yeah, I guess that’s been a little bit of a surprise.

Nathan:  That is really great. We appreciate you taking just a few minutes with us. 

Andrew:  I appreciate you having me on.

Nathan:  If someone wants to connect with you guys in some way to learn what you’re doing, what’s the best way to do that?

Andrew:  You can go to our website, RNWY.group.  I’m at LinkedIn, just Andrew Grant. I’m terminally online, so I’m pretty easy to be found. So yeah, thank you.

Nathan:  Awesome. Thanks. Appreciate it, Andrew.

Andrew:  Yeah, appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Nathan:  See you.

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Nathan Mills:  Wow, it got loud in here for just a second. We’re back at Money20/20 and I’ve got Todd and Kyla. Awesome. Thanks for being here, you guys. We’re up above The Canaletto in our little room here. Could you guys introduce yourselves a little bit more, tell us what you do and what your company Chisel does, and we will go from there.

Todd Rotolo:  Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having us, first of all. My name is Todd Rotolo; I’m Head of Growth & Marketing at Chisel. So I’m responsible for getting us in front of opportunities like this. Yeah. Appreciate you helping us out.

Nathan:  Yeah. Well, good! I get it, because I do the same thing. What about you, Kyla?

Kyla Galicia:  I’m Kyla Galicia; I’m Head of Client Relationships & Implementations at Chisel; and my main job is to guide our clients through the standing up of their program. So I manage from a project management perspective; I help them work through all the requirements from the banks, the processors, the card networks, make sure they’re on track and have a good experience getting their program stood up.

Nathan:  Fantastic. Well, tell me a little more about Chisel, where you guys, what you do now, how you got started, if you know that story.

Kyla:  Yeah. Todd, do you want to take this one? I feel like you pitch this better.

Todd:  Sure, absolutely. Darin Petty and Tyler Ferguson are our two co-founders, and they’ve worked together for years on the banking and fintech side. And so, really what they saw as an opportunity was the move away from BaaS and the opportunity to create direct relationships between fintechs and their banking partners, and the ability to program manage that entire soup-to-nuts process, and really sherpa these fintechs through that process. A lot of them don’t know what they don’t know, and so having somebody that’s been there and done it for the last 20-30 years is really sorely needed in a lot of cases. So yeah, really filling that gap and building the full fintech stack for them, the back end, so yeah. How was that, Kyla?

Kyla:  That was great. In addition to that, the other piece that we provide is we provide the technology build on the back end, and we build it on our clients’, on their software and their service. So they own it. They don’t rent it. We build it for them. They can contract with us to service it for them, so that way they don’t have to take on that work. And then they can white label it, plug in whatever they need to plug into for their—and it just really helps expedite the process, because we understand what needs to get built, how it needs to be built, how it needs to connect to all the different players in the space. So it really helps the different fintechs really stand up their programs quicker, gives them a better idea what they’re doing, and allows them to be more successful more quickly.

Nathan:  And that’s, I mean it’s interesting because everyone wants to move quick, but you’ve got to do it right, and both of those things have to happen. They do. So very interesting. We talked a little bit before we started here about just a general question, which sounds like you guys are right in the middle of. What about bank / fintech partnerships, and what helps make those effective? What makes a good bank / fintech partnership from your standpoint?

Kyla:  Yeah, absolutely. I’m all about communication. I think the better communication you have, the better the process is going to be, and the better everyone is going to understand what needs to be done. So my goal is to really provide a lot of clarity, a lot of consistency, and really transparent communication both with the fintech and then help them have that same communication with the bank. I do that with, I set up really clear communication standards just to make sure that everyone’s on the same page. We work through project management systems to make sure that we’re tracking. Everyone knows who needs to do what next. We have very regular communication cadences in terms of meetings, talk about what risks do we have, what blockers do we see coming up, to make sure that we can kind of head those off before we get to them. That way we don’t hit a blocker and go oh shoot, now we have to wait to get this done, and it pushes the launch outo a month because it’s going to take X amount of time to build out the solution. My job is to keep communication flowing and spot those risks before they happen.

Nathan:  Yeah. Yeah. Are there some things in this space that get you excited? Like when you see happening, or like advancements or opportunities that you guys – like when you roll out of bed in the morning and you’re like ah, I get to do this? 

Todd:  Yeah, right. We’ve been talking to a lot of people about how AI is going to be affecting a lot of these different partnerships moving forward, and talking to somebody in compliance yesterday about how they built this entire platform where you’ve got an LLM where you can just plug something in and what used to take a month of mainly overview and compliance is now done in maybe a couple of hours.

Nathan:  Wow. 

Todd:  So yeah, seeing that kind of movement and how people are going to be able to move faster is really exciting. Just enabling more direct partnerships and ownership over your own SAG. Yeah. There’s a lot of exciting things happening out there. What about you?

Kyla:  I would say the most exciting thing for me is I love helping these clients who have a vision, helping them bring it to life. I’m not the most creative person. I’m really organized, so if I can help someone else who’s really passionate about something and has a really great idea, help them build it and launch it? Like that gives me, I get so excited about that. It’s such a cool thing to get to do.

Nathan:  That’s awesome.

Todd:  On the marketing side of that, right now we’re working on standing up some marketing as a service options to our fintech and bank partners. So yeah, being able to take those really good ideas and bring them to the world, get them out there and working and make a mark, is as Steve Jobs said, put a dent in the universe. That’s really exciting.

Nathan:  Yeah. So Money20/20, have you been here before, or is this the first time? 

Kyla:  This is the first time for both of us.

Nathan:  Yeah? What do you think?

Kyla:  It’s great.

Todd:  A little overwhelming, but a lot of fun.

Nathan:  Yeah, it is a lot.

Kyla:  The Venetian is a maze. I’ve been lost so many times.

Nathan:  Well, unfortunately this is the last year at the Venetian. It’s moving. We’ve been here for several years, and we’ve had this room for several years and we’re going to lose it.

Kyla:  How sad.

Nathan:  Yeah I know, we’ve gotten to know the staff here so well and so that’s sad, but it’s such an amazing event. And to see all the collaboration, which I think is an interesting aspect of this. 

Kyla:  It is.

Todd:  We’ve met incredible people here. 

Kyla:  Yeah, it’s kind of fun to just sit in the same room as all the different people who are trying, like working towards the same goal of really creating compliance in a really exciting space where we can all learn and grow.

Nathan:  Yeah, and I don’t think you necessarily see that in other industries. It’s kind of unique in banking, I think.

Kyla:  Yeah. Well, there’s just so much room for all the players in the space currently because it is so small still, and there are more fintech partners that are trying to grow and launch and build their programs than there are banks and processors and the capacity for card networks to be able to help these fintechs. It’s very collaborative, which I really enjoy. I come from a banking background. I was in the bank for a long time, so I really enjoy the fact that banks will reach out to each other. Like how are you handling this? I don’t know what to do with this. It’s just very different than other industries.

Nathan:  Yeah. 

Todd:  Like so many places have a zero sum mindset, right, and you just don’t see that here. At least I haven’t yet.

Nathan:  Yeah. Well, there’s too much at stake and too much that we share in the industry, right, that we have to all kind of be paddling the same direction, right? The regulators have to be on board with that, and so if we’re fighting against each other it’s not going to help.

Kyla:  Exactly.

Nathan:  Yeah. Awesome. Where can people learn more about Chisel if they’re interested in working with you guys? 

Todd:  We are GoChisel.com or we are @GoChisel on pretty much every social media platform on earth.

Nathan:  OK, I’ll make sure people hear that. Thanks, you guys. I appreciate it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

Kyla:  Thank you so much.

Todd:  Thanks.

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Nathan Mills:  All right, we’re back here. We’ve got Dimitri from Modern Treasury here with me. Thanks, Dimitri, for joining me. 

Dimitri Dadiomov:  Thanks for having me.

Nathan:  How’s the show been so far for you?

Dimitri:  It’s been good. It’s always exciting to come back, and you feel like it’s an annual tradition to just see a lot of friends and there’s new, interesting things happening in the industry always, so it’s a good time.

Nathan:  It’s a big reunion.

Dimitri:  It really is.

Nathan:  That’s great. Dimitri, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you at Modern Treasury and a little bit about Modern Treasury? I know you’ve had some news recently, too, so maybe you can share that with us as well.

Dimitri:  Sure. So Modern Treasury. I’m Dimitri Dadiomov; I’m Co-Founder and President of Modern Treasury. We started in 2018 building software tools for companies to have APIs for money movement, so in sending payment instructions, ledgering, things like that. We move a few hundred billion dollars a year now across our use cases and customers. And we have some fun news. Two weeks ago we announced the company that was our first acquisition, a company called Bean, that’s a stablecoin orchestration company. We think about the world as ultimately like, to run a corporate business you have to manage all the different payment rails, and ideally in one place and make it simple. And so, stablecoins are a new payment rail; obviously a lot of people are starting to experiment with them for cross-border, for pre-funding, for all kinds of use cases. As Modern Treasury we want to support that.

Nathan:  That’s cool. Tell me what, I mean, you’re probably getting a lot of the same questions about stablecoin. How do you explain to people who are just trying to figure out what this is in the easiest terms, and what are the biggest misconceptions maybe that you know about that.

Dimitri:  Yeah, well for the past fifteen or so years we’ve had this crypto movement, and people really, a lot of technologists working on new crypto currencies, and there’s a lot of—it’s a loaded term. There’s a lot of complexity to that. But it hasn’t been particularly useful in a corporate kind of context or in a payment context. It’s been more of a speculative thing. So I think one of the big things for us is that when I think about stablecoins and what they do, people have realized hey, we actually take the best technology out of crypto and combine it with the best of normal currency, which is make it stable, make it useful, make it something that people can rely on. That’s really where this breakthrough has come from. I think over the past call it eighteen months, you’ve really seen a lot more use cases where stablecoins are really powerful. They’re instant, they’re global, they’re stable, they’re pegged to the dollar so they’re no different than dollar effectively, right.

Nathan:  So where are you seeing the more exciting uses of stablecoin that people may not be aware of?

Dimitri:  I think that cross borders is a classic use case that you hear about, so a lot of people especially other geographies, emerging markets, where people want to have access to U.S. dollars and want to store funds in U.S. dollars, stablecoins are much easier ways to do that. So you’re seeing, starting to see cases where companies are paying contractors in other geographies over stablecoins. They’re able to issue cards against that stablecoin balance, and so all of a sudden you don’t even have to convert into local currency. You can kind of walk around with that card and pay for a latte and pay for that directly out of the stablecoin balance. So it’s really becoming a pretty useful daily thing. Now if you’re in the U.S. it doesn’t matter. You’re already living in U.S. dollars. That eye prop isn’t that interesting. But the majority of the world does not live in U.S. dollars. In the U.S. there’s a lot of corporate use cases around pre-funding, so guaranteeing fundings at a given time in a given moment. So if you’re making loans, for example, and you have to make sure that the account out of which the loan funds are coming out of is funded on time. So if it doesn’t work on the weekends, if it doesn’t work at night, how do you actually keep that funded? You start seeing these very I would call it high-precision spot funding, and you’re able to do it in a corporate environment, which means you don’t have to overfund every other account. It means you don’t have to have an analyst logging into a bunch of different cashboards moving money around, making sure you’re not bouncing on some future payments.

Nathan:  Huh. Yeah, that’s not the use case I had heard or thought of. It’s interesting.

Dimitri:  Yeah, I was just talking to a friend. They’re in the kind of lending business. They’re a small business lender. They have funds coming from various capital providers, and one of them happened to be outside the U.S. and the wire got stuck somewhere and wasn’t on time. They were not actually able to make the loan to the small businesses, so – they didn’t do it before, but they decided to try it out and use stablecoins, and of course it worked instantly and was just fine. And they’re like, why don’t we just do this?

Nathan:  Yeah. It’s so interesting. Are there parts of the world that you’re seeing like the highest adoption right now that’s really taking hold? Or are we still waiting on that.

Dimitri:  I think Latin America and Africa, places where again, I think the traction of the U.S. dollar relative to local currency is probably the best predictor of how much adoption is there. It’s not for payment use cases per se, it’s just for being able to store funds in U.S. dollars.

Nathan:  OK, interesting. Well, what else is Modern Treasury doing that maybe is coming up soon that you guys are excited about?

Dimitri:  We have a ledgering product which is basically a high-performing database for companies to manage complex accounts and things like that, and that’s something that over the past few years we’ve seen, some companies are in trouble, not being able to do well and so on, and so I think that we’re seeing a lot of demand for that product. I think people are realizing– we kind of, that was our second product of the launch. The first one was around moving money and the second one was on this—maybe not so intense insight of like if you move a lot of money you should probably track it. And shockingly, not every company does that. And so being able to have something out of the box that maintains double-entry accounting in a high through-port, high velocity payment scenario is actually not a trivial problem. And so a lot of companies built internal teams, kind of engineering teams just building this stuff internally, so being able to not do that and have something that actually works well? We’re very excited about it. It’s one of those nerdy kind of back office things, but if you don’t do it well . . . it’s fraught.

Nathan:  No. You hear about it, so . . . Well, that’s fantastic. Dimitri, we don’t want to keep you long. I know there’s a lot of show still to take in, a lot of people to meet. So thank you for updating us. It’s great to meet you.

Dimitri:  Thank you so much.

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Nathan Mills:  We’re here with Rob. Rob, why don’t you introduce yourself and what you do and what your company does? We’ll go from there.

Rob Kaczmarek:  My name is Rob Kaczmarek; and I’m the Founder and CEO of a company called Inbanx. And what we do is spend management for large middle-market businesses, and then spend management for banks that don’t have a spend management solution or embedded finance solution that they can offer to their portfolio clients.

Nathan:  Interesting. How long have you been with Inbanx? How long has Inbanx been around?

Rob:  Man, we –this has been a long journey for us. This has been the fifth business that I’ve founded, so I don’t know if I’m a glutton for punishment, or . . . I actually had taken my last business global. It was in the engineering space. And I realized that the embedded finance, the finance tech stack that we needed wasn’t out there. And so we needed the visibility and control to be able to control the spend and then also get visibility across your organization. At the end of it we were about 180 employees operating in eight different countries, and no outside capital, so all of our spending had to be very regimented and very controlled. At the time, this was 2014-15-16, there was nobody out there that could offer that type of solution, and so exited that business and the problem was kind of gnawing at me. And I started looking at providers in the market and talking to a lot of banks, really, to see what was on their mind and if they were going to solve this problem. And it wasn’t even on their radar at that particular point.

So in 2020 I started toying around with the idea of building something and spent about a year putting together some proof of concepts, had some folks that I chose to bring in that weren’t the right folks, and so after a year of validating that I’m in the market, the opportunity, everything was real. And that got me really excited.

But it wasn’t the right infrastructure; it wasn’t the right people around me to do it. So I had to take that business and dissolve it and reformulate and spin up a new iteration of it, and in February of 2021 spun up Inbanx. Coming up with a whole new name and everything else, I sat in this little tiny room trying to figure it out.

Nathan:  Sometimes it feels like the biggest thing, right? And the hardest thing. What do I call this thing?

Rob:  I kind of feel like my whole pandemic was sitting inside of a little tiny room somewhere and I wonder where my family was, but . . .

Nathan:  I know they’re still around, right?

Rob:  That’s what the perception was, anyway; that’s what it felt like. It was a lot of hard work and a lot of thought went into—how do you do this, and how do you do it—you know, we’re going after middle-market businesses. Those middle-market businesses have very complex organizational structures, sometimes multi-entity. Where does the credit live? Does it live at the umbrella? Or at one of the subsidiaries? And so there’s a lot of nuances to this that are very challenging, and hence why I love it. And also why it’s not solved, right? It’s not as easy as just going out and underwriting an SMB and moving on. The positives to it is that most large to middle-market businesses are more stable, they have more season to them, their financials are better, their credit consumption is oftentimes a lot larger, so what we see in this space is businesses need two or three million dollars a month of credit. They don’t have any one provider to give them that credit, so they’ll have AmEx, CitiBank, JPMorgan, a whole bunch of different cards, and then they piece those cards together through an infrastructure like Concur to try and track it. And they’re running about 120 days blind to the actual data. So it’s . . .

Nathan:  Wow. That’s scary.

Rob:  It’s pretty interesting to look at and see.

Nathan:  So four years, almost, since you launched Inbanx. A lot’s changed in four years, even. I’m curious for you guys what, I mean how many pivots have you had to make along the way?

Rob:  We’ve made a bunch of pivots, including our bank. So we’re here today with one of the best banks I think in the market.

Nathan:  I tend to agree with you.

Rob:  I’ve looked at every bank that was out there and talked to every bank that was out there. We initially spun up a product in 2023. We launched with a bank that was smaller out on the west coast, and we managed to max out their balance sheet capacity in three months. So great, I got a win point that validated that the market exists, right? Bad, I now maxed out my balance sheet of my bank, and now I can’t lend any more in the space. So now what do I do? And so we were poised with that problem right as the kind of tail end of the last administration was there, so regulations were very tight. It was, if I’m honest, it was a blood bath out there. I mean cease and desist letters everywhere.

Nathan:  We remember, yeah.

Rob:  We couldn’t onboard anything. It was a very challenging time. So now fast forward, here we are. We’ve obviously launched with your bank, and it’s a much different world. It feels much different. It feels like we have a tail wind now pushing us along rather than a head wind kind of holding us back. Market conditions are a little bit different. Businesses are still looking to spend more controlled, and get more visibility and control into that spend. And so that piece is good, but ultimately they’re now seeing hey, if I spend more I’m going to make more. And so that’s a too-good world.

Nathan:  Yeah. Well, we’re here at Money20/20. I’m sure you’ve been here plenty of times, and it’s changed a lot. What — are you hearing anything being discussed that’s surprised you at all? Or that gets you excited for the next few years?

Rob:  Biggest surprise I got was that they’re changing the format for next year.

Nathan:  Yeah, I know, for us, too.

Rob:  But I think the kind of consensus of everybody I talk to is that this format has kind of run its course, I think. Everybody loves this show.

Nathan:  Mix it up.

Rob:  Love to get home from the show, ‘cause it is kind of grueling. But this is one of the best opportunities to get speaking to folks that are capital venture that backs companies that do this type of work, banks that support companies that do this type of work, or companies that are building something. And so for me, the banking aspect is great for it because you can network banks, but what I enjoy is just the partnership aspect of it and the collaboration. There are always businesses here that are willing to talk about what they do. And it allows me to really look at hey, what kind of partners are there out in the space and what options do I have?

Nathan:  Have you found that to be unique in banking? That willingness to collaborate and talk to competitors, even?

Rob:  No. It is, I think it is pretty unique to fintech. There are the moments where you have competitors and the competitors don’t want to talk, or obscure how they’re doing things or what they’re doing, so you’ve kind of got that a little bit. But for the most part, it’s a tight-knit community and everybody knows each other. And it’s a highly collaborative environment because of the fact I think the regulations, you have the regulations which set the rules and kind of how you need to operate the system, and it sets up a consistent list of challenges. And so from a technology share point, right? How do I overcome this particular challenge? There’s probably five, six different ways to overcome it, but really people are very open and vocal in how they’ve overcome that, irregardless of if they’re your competitor or not.

Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Well, if someone is interested in working with you guys, learning more about you, what’s the best way to do that?

Rob:  Yeah, our website is www.inbanx.com – that’s always a great place to start. There’s a Contact Me form, or you can always reach out to me on LinkedIn. My last name is kind of unique, but Rob Kaczmarek. I really do look forward to talking to anybody, if there’s anybody out there who wants to learn about fintech or has any questions, I do a lot of this with the Combs School of Business and talk with the MBAs and even the other grads, too, because I think it’s important that we help shed some light into this industry.

Nathan: We need them, right?

Rob:  Yeah!

Nathan:  Thank you so much. Hopefully we get a chance to talk later. Maybe we can do a longer conversation.

Rob:  I would love to. I would love to. Thank you.

Nathan:  Thanks.

«««««««««

Nathan Mills:  I’m here  with Alex. Alex, welcome. Thank you for taking a little bit of time to sit with us here, and I know there’s other things you could be doing here.

Alex Gostomelsky:  No, I’m grateful to be here and chat with you guys. Always.

Nathan:  Fantastic. Alex, why don’t you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about what you do, what your company does, and we’ll go from there.

Alex:  Beautiful. My name is Alex Gostomelsky; I’m CFO at Tapcheck. We’re an earned wage access platform and financial wellness toolkit for the wage worker. We are a B2B2C provider, so we work directly with employers to enable the benefit for their employees. We have a wide set of integrations, over 200 payroll and time, so you are able to create a very accurate and precise calculation on somebody’s day-to-day wages. So, one of the things that we really pride ourselves on is making sure that we’re able to be extremely accessible to more employees in the time that they need their wages the most. The simplest example might be somebody that worked an 8-hour shift. They’re able to clock their 8 hours into their time-and-attendance platform. We have a real-time sync to be able to see those hours, as well as into the payroll to understand their wages for the day and offer a portion of their balance on demand. For folks, especially in the economy today, where unexpected payments or burdens come up, Tapcheck’s there to be that resource for them to be able to get their earned wages when they want it.

Nathan:  When they’ve earned them.

Alex:  Yeah, and start breaking down that old two-week cycle.

Nathan:  Sort of the first thing that came to my mind as you were explaining that, it changes the whole phrase “living paycheck-to-paycheck.” It upends that completely.

Alex:  Yeah. I always say the greatest irony of Tapcheck is we’re obviously a growth company and we’ve been growing quite significantly over the last several years; but when we’re at our best we graduate folks from being paycheck-to-paycheck to getting out in front of their finances. They don’t need Tapcheck so much any more. We’re always there as a safety and something that folks have found to be extremely secure, valuable, and for the employer earned wage access has really become table stakes. From our perspective, as a CFO I’m obviously meeting with investors and folks in the capital market on a daily basis, and the questions are always Who’s your ISTP? Who’s your most direct use case? And I always say I’m going to give you the worst answer you’ve ever heard. It’s literally every working American. Every single American. It doesn’t matter what industry they’re in, what their income is, everybody should have access to their wages on demand and so that’s what we’re enabling. And it’s becoming ubiquitous for a reason.

Nathan:  Where did you find the most traction when you started?

Alex:  I think in the space where there are a lot more front-line employees, so where we see a lot of traction, need and product market fit is where there a greater proportion of hourly employees so that inherently becomes industries like healthcare, manufacturing, retail, casual dining, quick service restaurants. But we have customers in the most wide variety of businesses you could think of, from companies that make the labels at supermarkets to dry cleaners or like regional airports. And so we have a really wide array, and that’s why we kind of say like we are blessed that we don’t have to have such a critical focus on an industry or a segment. We’re able to serve a broad variety of customers, and that’s something we really pride ourselves on. So whether it’s an SMB or an enterprise, we really serve the broader market.

Nathan:  What was the process like, just culturally, we’ve been so accustomed to the two-week pay period, or twice a month, whatever; was there kind of a learning period for people to say can we do this? Is this, can it function?

Alex:  Yeah. That’s where all credit goes to our Founders, Ron and Kayling Gaver. It’s their third successful business together, and their prior businesses employed a lot of front-line workers. So they came from real estate background and construction background, and also had extensive experience in payroll itself and connecting disparate HTM systems into a payroll offering. And so when earned wage access kind of started making some initial rumblings back in 2017-2018, they said hey, wait a minute. There’s nobody better suited to launch this product, build this product, than us. They had the experience both from the employer’s side, from the employees’ side, and from the payroll side. And every employer that has that direct relationship with their employee feels his pain. They have been approached by their employee in time of need asking hey, can I get an advance on my paycheck? This or that happened. And in the cases that we hate to hear is when the employee has to go to the check cashing place or the payday place and fall into the debt cycle or into a really, really high interest situation. And so that’s really where everybody can kind of relate to this, whether it’s on a personal level or just from I hate to say it, but common sense. The adoption and the reasons to buy in and from an employer’s standpoint to really differentiate, to add that benefit, our product is free for an employer to sign up as well. They get tremendous benefit in retention, in employee satisfaction, employee longevity, reducing turnover, so the benefit really runs deep across an organization and is something that we work continually to build around every day.

Nathan:  I can imagine an employee having that as a benefit, leaving or thought of leaving, and going somewhere that didn’t have it.

Alex:  Huge.

Nathan:  It would probably have a huge impact on their decision, right?

Alex:  Yeah. And we always say, especially for some of our more kind of like store-front types of businesses like a fast-food franchise, like to say that you have that versus the competitor across the street that doesn’t, it’s a huge benefit that differentiates you.

Nathan:  Well, Money20/20. You’ve been here before, I assume, or is this the first time?

Alex:  No, I think this is my third time. Every year, or maybe even fourth. Every year I say I’m not going to come, and then about ten days beforehand, all the, you just get sucked . . .

Nathan:  Everyone, hey, are you going to be there?

Alex:  Everyone’s coming, yeah, you end up always end up coming around. Like oh my gosh, when am I ever going to meet like every single person I interact with throughout the whole year in one place in forty-eight hours? And I always leave just so energized and ready to get at it.

Nathan:  And full of good food.

Alex:  Yeah, and then you end up getting in a position where you have to remind yourself you can’t do everything at once. All the great ideas are great for a reason, but we’ve got to prioritize to make sure…

Nathan:  But they’re all coming at you at the same time.

Alex:  You just want to do them all.

Nathan:  What’s your – have you heard anything in conversations here or kind of heard whispers of anything that gets you excited, especially that apply to you guys as you move forward? Changes you might make?

Alex:  Yeah, it’s funny I think. Everybody talks about how every year there’s a new theme at Money20/20 and I think this year resoundingly it’s around stablecoins. And that’s a throwback. I think that was a theme of a couple years back.

Nathan:  Right. It just has a different name.

Alex:  It came back around, as it always does. I personally have a lot of experience and have spent a life or two around the crypto blockchain world, so for me personally it’s exciting to see that space continue to mature and find use cases. And I think the better we think about and the deeper we think about money movement and the security of money movement the better. And I think stablecoins are a great use case for that. Nothing particularly for Tapcheck around that world yet, but down the road certainly as it becomes more engrained around payments, I’m sure it’s something that will come back around. But no, I think for me talking with folks like FinWise, seeing the banks here, seeing the innovation around the banks. I was just talking to the team here, and the different user tools, the different consumer tools, the business tools, the banking tools, the infrastructure is innovating really, really fast. And every year I come and I’m shocked to hear what the next wave is and how fast it’s happening. So that’s the stuff that really gives me a cheat code for thinking about strategy finding for our company and what’s beyond.

Nathan:  Well, I won’t commit you to come back next year, but you’ll get sucked in.

Alex:  Yeah, somewhere in like the October 17 range, you can bank on it for sure.

Nathan:  Oh, that sounds great. Well Alex, thanks for taking a few minutes to sit with us. We’re glad you could come join us.

Alex:  Yeah, you guys are the best. Thank you so much.

Nathan:  So, have fun the rest of the show, what’s left of it.

Alex:  See you in 2026.

Nathan:  All right. Thanks, Alex.

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Nathan Mills:  All right. Well, we’re back, and we’ve got some guys from Wolf here, right? The guys from Wolf.

Matt MacDonald:  The Wolf Pack, yeah.

Nathan Mills:  Oh yeah, I like that.

Emmett Shipman:  Affectionately.

Nathan:  Between the Owls and the Wolves here.

Matt:  Yeah, I think we’re good. We’re wild.

Nathan:  Well, Matthew and Emmett, why don’t you guys introduce yourselves and tell us what you do at Wolf and what Wolf is.

Emmett:  Yeah, thanks for having us. Emmett Shipman; I’ve been a big fan of FinWise from afar and close. I used to be at Allied Labs when FinWise was a happy member of Allied Labs. So I joined…

Nathan:  I’ve got something to share with you.

Emmett:  Oh, I love that. Yeah, that’s great.

Nathan:  Good timing.

Emmett:  I work in Fintech Strategy & Growth at Wolf; I joined six months from Allied Labs, and helping Matt help sort of take our fintech practice to the next level.

Nathan:  Fantastic.

Matt:  Matt MacDonald, a partner at the firm; I lead our Fintech Practice. And I was born and raised in banking essentially, more in cybersecurity, but now more focused on bringing holistic strategy to compliance and risk management for fintech companies, and to how that can support bank needs.

Nathan:  Cool. Tell me a little bit about how Wolf was born and where your focuses are, and what you’re working on the most right now.

Matt:  Do you want me to tell the fun story?

Nathan:  Tell the fun story.

Matt:  All right. So we have a fun story. Wolf was born in 1911, 115 years old. Our first project was taking a look at Charles Ponzie’s books, and we literally uncovered the Ponzie scheme threat in 1911.

Nathan:  How cool is that?

Matt:  And yeah, then we were off to the races.

Nathan:  Tell me you’ve got something still in the company, in an office, some kind of relic.

Matt:  There’s a vault, and the books are in a vault somewhere in an undisclosed location. So, after many generations of people working for Wolf, we are able to support over 500 financial institutions, but also have a lot of other different verticals, specifically around the fintech practice. We really love supporting Series A, Series B companies. We really just get their third rail, as we like to call it, with compliance and risk management on top of a product and sales-oriented strategy that they have. I think it’s really important for us to be able to support more founders with somebody that maybe they don’t have as high of a degree of expertise, and that’s really where we like to come in.

Nathan:  Yeah. So, obviously a lot’s changed in the industry in the last few years. We’ve been talking a lot about it here. But for you guys, what’s been kind of maybe most exciting things or challenging things with all the changes you’re helping people deal with?

Matt:  It was an interesting, what, 18 months, the past 18 months in fintech. Some significant blindspots that I think had cascade effects across the industry, which is unfortunate but I think where we get excited now is the sort of BaaS or when fintech winter starts to thaw. I see a huge opportunity to sort of make sure that we can build on the learnings of that into sort of a more sustainable foundational piece of making sure that the ever-converging worlds of banking and fintech continue to sort of thrive and support the market that it’s really asking for.

Nathan:  Money20/20 is a unique kind of event. You’ve been a few times, I’m assuming?

Matt:  Yeah.

Nathan:  What are you seeing here? What’s changed? What’s being talked about here that we should be keeping our eyes on, and that you guys are on top of, or hoping to be on top of?

Emmett:  Stablecoin seems to be pervasive this year. No shock to anyone, I think who’s been close to the space, I think. I joined Wolf in May of this past year and I think by June or July our phones were ringing trying to, from our clients and prospects, they’re saying hey, how do we need to be thinking about this?

Matt:  He’s right. So, a ton of that.

Emmett: But there’s a real energy at Money20/20 that’s hard to replicate elsewhere. The fintech world is relatively small, so being able to see people and make connections and the serendipitous element of what’s happening downstairs. I think we’re all a little tired after the last couple days, but certainly worth it to keep fighting the good fight.

Matt:  I would say the number of companies that we’ve met have “dot AI” at the end of their names as magnitude creator that we’ve seen over the last couple years, and I think that’s a real important perspective for banks as well to understand that AI’s going to become an element in any sort of partnership or relationship strategy that they have going forward. And I think to be able to harness that use case and to be able to have that disrupt their legacy processes and their legacy services is something that we’re keeping an eye on certainly, at Money20/20 and beyond.

Nathan:  Yeah. That one’s not going away.

Matt:  The genie’s out of that bottle.

Nathan:  Yeah, it keeps coming up. Well, cool. How, if someone wants to work with you guys or learn more about your services, what’s the best way to get ahold of you?

Matt:  www.wolfandco.com and you can find us there. We always appreciate phone calls. We like to say phone calls are always free, so we do appreciate anyone who has a problem they need, whether it’s audit, tax, risk management, or strategic advisory, always happy to help.

Nathan:  Cool. Awesome. Well thanks, you guys. Appreciate it. I know that was short, but I’m sure maybe we’ll have a change to talk again, and hopefully get a couple phone calls coming your way from who knows who’s listening out there.

Matt:  Absolutely. Thanks so much for having us.

Nathan:  Enjoy the rest of the show, and safe travels, too.

Thanks for listening.